Were certainly no better in terms of our basic humanity, but we may have the benefit of a lot of hindsight. All three words refer to one position or office within the church, that of the elders. You dont get to ask for silence now. But this just doesnt seem to fit. About how you think there is something wrong with you because you dont feel the same things that they do, and soon you come to believe that you are defective or damaged goods. If they couldnt get it right after three years of intensive time with Jesus, what chance do we have? For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. but also why it doesnt seem to happen in the institution. Dallas Jenkins, Executive Director, Vertical Church Media at Harvest Bible Chapel, and son of Jerry Jenkins of Left Behind fame, tells stories for a living and shares insider info about producing and directing films at Harvest in this session of the Pro Church Podcast. After six months exclusively online, we returned to in person services in September 2020. Wonderful, on point comment. Dallas Jenkins: commenting from anonymous online handles. The Elgin Campus held their first service in September 2004 with over 800 in attendance and has become the church home to more than 1000 worshipers every week, as well as the home of our Christian school. -, I figure whenever Paul was speaking to us through Scripture, he was drawing from his personal knowledge of the Kingdom of God rather than what he thought about it. Most were started by a mere man who was convinced that his mission had more of a corner on the Truth than the rest. The bear was later seen using the gun to defend itself against local mice and rabbits.. If not, he served as an elder when he wasnt one and we call that a fraud, And there were boatloads of frauds on those elder boards, How do I know? They began by gathering in an unused TV studio. He says he knows, "from the inside, some of these things that have come out in the public about pastors". can you elaborate on what went on during and after the showing of The Passion Of The Christ? It is the internal nagging I have following Dees post on Friday about JD Hall and Braxton Caner. It is always, My friends are here, My kids depend on the youth group, or Who is going to bury me?. Your apoplectic friend needs to go read the Bible, maybe one of those verses the mega preachers who demand your trust intentionally ignore or havent read themselves, like this one: Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save. Psalms 146:3, Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25, Do not trust a neighbor; put no confidence in a friend. Making vague accusations like that is true slander. * Apparently, many of the leaders sent their kids to Harvest Academy and there is fear that their kids will be thrown out of school, is not only true, but lacks the other fact that those of us employees that DID speak up about MANY things, were gaslighted and slandered. SiteSeer: This is so very true! ++++++++++++++++++++++++. I understand your point and the historical information. GreekEpigraph: there is no mechanism at all for pew peons to do as you note and hold elders accountable for anything. No announcement, no warning, just Have something I want you to see. Then suddenly Boom, there it was on the screen. Back Small Group Harvest Kids Harvest Students College Men Women Harvest Worship Disablities Prayer Care Outreach . These churches treat women so badly, but promise men all sorts of things (that will probably never happen) to keep the men coming. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? Dallas Jenkins was a former leader at Harvest Bible Chapel. ex HCA Staff: . Perhaps its the side deals as well. Lets face it, in this era one can access whatever superior teaching is preferred in the comfort of their home or car. (although unnecessary according to ECFA standards).. And before any more electrons needlessly perish, an argument about the validity of the pastoral office vs elders is probably not the real issue in the HBC case. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. Check out the Stronger Mens Conference When will the madness end?! When people look back on the history of the American evangelical movement in the first years of the third millennium, I sure hope they will shake their heads and ask why we put up with this nonsense for so long. Also, we must note who it is that the elders have authority over. The man most likely is considering launching a new ministry and needs to be stopped in his tracks. I AM GOD AND YOU ARE GOD AND EVERYTHING THAT GROKS IS GOD TOGETHER! But your comment proves you are doing exactly what you oppose. That someone who was on the point of dying took time to write these dreams down is remarkable in and of itself. Pathetic at best. I will have to wait until I get to my computer because Im on my phone and the type of the letter is too small to read. * Apparently, many of the leaders sent their kids to Harvest Academy and there is fear that their kids will be thrown out of school. You were part of a workforce which brought a feeling of camaraderie and purpose and fellowship. yup, great biblical example here! Sadly, many have not served well. Now this is a dichotomy because we are speaking about faith because we cannot know all facts of God, but what is done on this earth is grounded in facts and with witnesses. At regiment and higher scale, the CO is at the rear, managing subordinate commanders with the aid of his staff officers. I will add that I know several women who want out badly, but their husbands refuse. I am generally ignorant regarding legal or business matters, but isnt this illegal? Yes, because he delivered the pew what they wanted in a church experience. I dont feel the joy that my faith used to give. and they have everyone scared spitless that if they vocalize their concerns about what is unethical in their church, & in their tribe, they will disappoint God, Never to leave me alone! Here is a short article describing the NT words used for the offices: I think Sinclair Lewis was an emotional infant and had a lot more in common with Elmer Gantry than he had the introspection to see. Craig French: Thanks for confirming the authenticity of the content, Dallas. Maybe we should have been, and still should be, picketing in front of Driscolls new church, handing out pamphlets including some of his more famous woman-degrading statements? Harvest Christian Academy currently has more than 500 students, more than 60 staff members, and continues to move forward with a high leadership focus. Ken F (aka Tweed): Rather, it appears that the early church looked much more Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Anglican than low-church protestant. How arrogant is that Dallas. Not for money or fame but just because you want to show them love. Someone asked How high does this go? (1 Peter 4:14). These head pastors will gladly pay SM large fees in exchange for helping them become secret multi-millionaires. Ishy: Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? Thanks for the reply. They are crumbling under their current debt load that FRED saddled them with; still he brags. In the last two years, 75% of the Executive Leadership team has left HBC. Which direction you take religion or relationship determines whether you discover Truth or not. I initially read that as bought him years of support.Same thing I guess. At least we can see from this that publicizing facts online does provably result in change. We care about you and your family. Throughout the many posts, including this one, there has been some balance and at least an appearance to be open for discussion, albeit without original proof. It might be handy (for someone in high places with a gambling addiction) to have an insider to assist them in hiding their identity or amount of activity. That incident was only the tip of the iceberg. In fact, not saying something wouldve been considered enabling and a betrayal of those being hurt.. Worst $12 I ever spent. Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. each of us has a unique view into the multi-faceted diamond of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. This is why I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the Truth. I feel like all of the verses you quoted would work just as well if it was translated the older, mature believers in the church. I see nothing denoting an office. It seems like to me that in a group of people, these things sort themselves out without anyone declaring it to be a position and appointing people to it. you have understanding and knowledge and a unique perspective that is valuable. One of my concerns with much of the Reformed world is their higher regard for doctrine and authority over the individual lost and needy soul. The NT writers frequently warn that false teachers, wolves, charlatans will enter the church to lead people astray; others are already there and will eventually show their true colours. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Driscolls board is down to him as President and director, Jimmy Evans and Randall Taylor (who I believe is an attorney). Notice how you need to be part of this first hand, and not from a distance like on the world wide web for even unbelievers to see. Personally I do not want to create that kind of hardship for the surviving relatives of those who made my youth group experience a nightmare. Dallas Jenkins Harvest Bible Chapel. Years ago, I decided to go forth with my name on this blog I did it to help people who have reason to suspect that their identity could cause them problems with out of control churches If yo have a problem with anonymity, take it up with me. ME MAN! I truly believe God provides the grace for elders to walk in the attributes in 1Tim 3, You dont have to watch a person for very long to discern whether that person is a grace filled believer or not. As another new, unforeseen door opened to bring Harvest to the Aurora area, 200 people from the Elgin Campus were sent south, opening as the Aurora Campus on January 23, 2011. Unfortunate, but true. Retch, gag, and barf, it gets old, it really does. In 2008, the church was listed by Outreach magazine as one of the 100 fastest-growing churches in America. Sadly, I have yet to see even one of these elders or executive staff members repent in a productive, redemptive manner. That was in response to PJ. us gray hairs, unfortunately, have experienced allot (hence gray hair), and the funny thing is that while technology progresses, human behavoir really does not change. Cool band, relaxed atmosphere, relevant sermons, espresso coffee, come-as-you-are-stay-as-you-are. This also is so very true! Great comment! Someone even mentioned an anti-Christ component here, which I agree with. They will now export it across the US. Dallas Jenkins: It was given to the elders two months ago. The average American Christian has evidently become so open-minded about such characters that their spiritual brains have fallen out! If she ends up with child porn on her computer which she can just barely turn on to view Facebook Im going to guess JMac or somebody planted it. You shouldve released your statement the first time around. If GP will cave to SBC outrage over a tweet in order to GET the contract, what else might they quietly cave on for the sake of KEEPING the contract or for getting the next one? I think these gifts are operating as God intended, outside of the systems weve designed and created. Muff Potter: And if they refuse to see that these guys are nothing more than carnival barkers and mountebanks? POIMEN, is translated to English as either pastor or shepherd. Releasing a letter to a select few was a half measure response. It makes you wonder what is in it for them to stay silent, or worse yet, to openly argue that the truth they were willing to report in secret should not be used to stop the victimization of hundreds of thousands of innocent Christians. While I am glad that he came here to confirm the authenticity of the letter, your attitude still shows that you have a long ways to go towards producing fruit that actually looks like repentance. As for Noevangelicals point that no-one on earth is so qualified, that is equally specious. God bless. elastigirl: i take no more stock in what paul thinks than i do in what i think. I can hardly stand to read that section in my Bible, much less watch it acted out. I dont have any answers. The thought has come to me again and again (others have expressed similar views) that the Church seems to recapitulate (history rhyming if not repeating exactly) Old Israel. Of course Im not omniscient, only God knows. Your actions are tell tale in what you believe regard God and Jesus his son. Every church leader should be good and honest. .. *whispers* Its possible it wasnt three years. Every jot and every tittle is just as if the Almighty is still thundering out of Horeb through Paul. That is because genuine relationships among people are an existential threat to the cult. Those types rarely think of anyone but themselves. But as for me, I watch in hope for the LORD, I wait for God my Savior; my God will hear me. Micah 7:5-7, It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in princes. Psalm 118:9, Thus says the Lord: Cursed is the man who trusts in man Jeremiah 17:5. Oh, they couldnt get away with that completely. Made a lot of money, enjoyed the fruits of fame that was a product of his professed following of Jesus. I dont know, if one follows Twitter, there are several who have commented that attended church with JMac in his youth, and they have nothing positive to say about him or his character from way back. I dont see the point in saying that you are a Christ-follower if you dont get to know Him through reading His Word. Does that make you manly? Sad. Which really Goes against believing in an all powerful creator God almighty. Churches that are run like cults do not encourage true friendships. Samuel Conner: people who were being abused, manipulated, fleeced here under the sun, but who nevertheless were hearing the gospel (as they understood gospel), even though it looks to us like it was being preached from false motives. If a cynic like me can be taken in, naive, trusting folks are easy prey. Most of those Ive heard and experienced who tout elder-rule polity will say that this passage says anything but pew peons having any say in elder or pastor selection and/or accountability. I just think some people do not care one tiny little bit about what the Lord said. Given His choice of companionship last time He was here, your friend from that Bible study might be shocked. At the very least, they need to reveal ALL they know, including leading the charge to open all of the financial books, including known and secret accounts. Personally, I call bull. I guess its all a matter of perspective. The neocalvinist church where I was an elder, which started off without one big head leader who called himself pastor, and people generally treating people decently, lasted a year or so before the guys found this amazing, godly 5-point calvinist whod been on John MacArthurs staff at GCC and had been a leader in SGMand then he took over and then he brought in his right-hand man from another state to be the leader of the elder team and then those two decided that the elders in place had been given too much unbiblical power over the pastor and so we all had to cede all authority to him and just be good friends without all these unbiblical checks and balances on the man whom the Lord had hand-picked to be over us. In preparation for the milestone anniversary of 30 years, it seemed fitting to host all our campuses together for Good Friday and Easter Sunday at the Sears Centre Arena. In the entire New Testament, the word only turns up once in the singular, 4th in a list of 5 useful gifts or roles (not official offices, near as I can tell) in Ephesians 4. I am sorry you and your family experienced that. its, like, the top christianese word that means so many different abstract things (depending on whos using the it) that it sort of means nothing anymore. Spot on with your comment. Abigail: In the meantime, I dont rejoice over unworthy vessels carrying the precious Gospel of Christ. Harvest Bible Chapel is a large evangelical organization with congregations across the metro Chicago area. I hope you do for your own sake so you do not end up like the Pharisees that Jesus plainly stated were headed straight to an eternity in hell. No more Moses behind a veil. At this point, Im not so sure that the church, as it is now manifested, is the keeper of pure Truth at all. Crony to cronyand I hear you and see it all the timebut to me? 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